@qwyrdo tl;dr: "no shit Sherlock" = same, same

@shoutcacophony *whistles badly* That's a score, all right ∑:o

@qwyrdo yup. two of the no answers were debatable, too. lol

@qwyrdo ok, i take back the "wary" part. this is bull crap lol http://highlysensitiveperson.net/hsp-autism-aspergers/

@shoutcacophony @qwyrdo tl;dr of thiss bs then?

@a_breakin_glass @qwyrdo

tl;dr the main HSP advocate (Elaine Aron) is wrong. it's possible (but i have no way of knowing, in terms of numbers atm) that this is adding to the "women getting misdiagnosed" problem, which is huge.

assumed cis male: cis female ratio for decades: 5:1.

assumed ratio now: ?? but a lot closer to parity - 1:1. nobody knows, because the diagnostic criteria was (and is) biased.

effectively no numbers of trans/queer folks and POC, too. or close to that.

@shoutcacophony @qwyrdo and what even is this "HSP" stuff for that matter?

@a_breakin_glass @qwyrdo this https://hsperson.com/

@qwyrdo @shoutcacophony this is all very very generic really tbh

It's like a broad and repetitive list of general personality traits, tbh

@a_breakin_glass @qwyrdo there's a specific threshold that is real (i'm in it), but the "why" of that gets harder under scrutiny. autism is at least pointing the direction of specific things, and is a spectrum-based model.

@a_breakin_glass @qwyrdo

in terms of cultural/social aspects of diagnosis in general, autism is far from perfect either, but (imho) it's a lot better than "no you're not that, your this" based on false/outdated information. autism has that as well, in a huge way, but it's not just...sorry, you're wrong, either. imo.

self-plug (blog): this is something i threw up about functioning labels, it's relevant to the HSP or HFA (non)-debate

http://www.metonymical.net/?p=109

@a_breakin_glass @qwyrdo

typos (multitasking, need to eat)

"in context, that makes sense (my guess is that she's saying that so people don't read her list of traits and jump to conclusions), but ffs y'all"

@shoutcacophony @qwyrdo
>cultural/social aspects of diagnosis in general, autism is far from perfect either

but isn't that at least as significant as thinking about ASD on its own?

@a_breakin_glass @qwyrdo not sure i follow, could you say more?

@shoutcacophony @qwyrdo
the socio-cultural context around ASD affects the process of diagnosis and the way people with it are treated as much as the ostensible symptoms used as part of the diagnosis

@a_breakin_glass ok, that's what i thought, but wasn't sure. @qwyrdo, i'm dropping you from the thread, since this is getting long, but feel free to join in ofc

@a_breakin_glass oh, definitely. the main difference i see is that HSP is some sub-clinical whatever (tbh) that a shrink came up in the mid 1990s, whereas autism has been studied out the wazoo for decades.

if anything, i wish they'd stop studying and provide us with social support instead, in general. they're both late 20th century frameworks though, and the social critique around both is real, i'm not denying that at all.

@a_breakin_glass also, both HSP and ASD have self-advocacy communities. the difference is that the latter isn't going around telling teh former "you don't 'have' HSP", at least in some cases.

related: in terms of social model of disability, to what degree is autism disability or impairment

https://autisticacademic.com/2014/09/22/autism-and-the-complication-of-the-disabilityimpairment-binary/

@a_breakin_glass personally, i'm on the "yes, i'm impaired, yes, disability is a social construct, yes, functioning labels are BS, yes, you can kma" end of things :P

also, i think some "HFAs" push hard on being "shiny" more than community-building across the spectrum. i'm sort of sick of hearing people say "being autistic and being an aspie are different", for example. especially as a way to say "im practically neurotypical". -_-

@a_breakin_glass

on the plus side, HSP isn't clinical, it's a personality type.

which is good in terms of self-advocacy terms, but if people keep using it as a wedge, that sort of undermines and/or negates all of that, community/solidarity-wise.

it's sort of like being a neuroscab :P when it's "that way", anyway

@shoutcacophony I mean that's not especially surpising, really.

@a_breakin_glass things being things in the larger societal context, especially? agreed.

@shoutcacophony and the fact that it provides something for people to look down upon, to take a kind of "there but for the grace of god go I" attitude.

@a_breakin_glass

*twitches*

people do that. meanwhile:

https://awnnetwork.org/functioning-labels-again/

@shoutcacophony mhm, sounds awful :/

@a_breakin_glass it is. that's the tip of the iceberg too :/

@shoutcacophony dare I want to know the rest of the iceberg?

@a_breakin_glass yes, but: CW -- fair warning, it's a double serving of child abuse, eugenics and familal murder

@shoutcacophony I can probably handle that

@a_breakin_glass ok, here goes. please take good care of yourself, friend, this is not easy going

it's taken me several months to get to a place where i can talk about it without getting seriously triggered

http://unstrangemind.com/aba/

https://autistichoya.net/judge-rotenberg-center/

http://www.sentex.net/~nexus23/naa_aba.html

https://www.autistichoya.com/2018/03/they-keep-publishing-these-violent.html

@a_breakin_glass

a whole topic in itself: how the largest autism-focused charity in the U.S., is actively pro-ABA and perpetually frames autism as a child-destroying, marriage-ending monster

https://www.autistichoya.com/2012/03/responding-to-autism-speaks.html

http://www.asan-au.org/2009/09/autism-speaks-i-am-autism-video/

and was founded by the vice-chairman of GE, make of that what you will

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autism_Speaks

they call themselves an advocacy group, but...erm

@a_breakin_glass that's the rough, birds-eye overview

@shoutcacophony
"and an abhorrence for human differences is usually spotted as a human rights problem"

except in the wider field of psychology, because that's arguably the entire point of pathologizing people

@a_breakin_glass *coughs* *ding*

@shoutcacophony all people become measured in regards to their ability to approximate a kyriachically defined "normality"

@shoutcacophony I mean, I'm repeating obvious stuff here, but it still has to be said, because so many people ignore it

@a_breakin_glass no, you're right. go go go go go

speaking to that is beyond the common/"normal" (eyeroll) bounds of even "social model of disability", and shouldn't be

it's why things like what was mentioned in that critique of "high functioning" that i sent you keep happening

@a_breakin_glass for me, i've seen this happen in multiple communities, for their own respective-yet-also-common reasons.

so i'm like "oh, this shit again. *sighs*" tbh

@shoutcacophony truscum seem like a similar phenomenon

@a_breakin_glass

*snirks* re "functioning" indeed

could you say more about social model of disability? the sources i'm familiar with present that as a counter to medical model: "society is broken" (social) vs "you are broken" (medical), fwiw

@shoutcacophony honestly, the intial comment was based on a very hazy understanding of said social model, but still the impairment/disablity distinction _does_ contain the same assumptions as the medical model, as it assumes that an individual is impaired even without the context of society, despite the fact that reducing disability should result in a situation where the impairment is (cont)

@shoutcacophony (cont) meaningless as an impairment as it isn't impairing anything except compared to a normative standard

@shoutcacophony if you're an aspie in a hypothetical environment that results in no disability, you're still inherently impaired

@shoutcacophony or maybe this is all a misunderstanding

@a_breakin_glass it depends on how we're describing impaired imo (including in a supposed "no disability" environment), but yes, that too

here

https://autisticacademic.com/2014/09/22/autism-and-the-complication-of-the-disabilityimpairment-binary/

@shoutcacophony yeah, this is broadly congruent with my point

not only is the distinction between impairment and disability blurry, some things aren't even coherent with it

@a_breakin_glass i feel like there's a lot of shorthand usages that go around, for the reasons the article describes: self/collective advocacy, etc.

it's still not a systemic/critical-level critique though, agreed

@a_breakin_glass even if it is (or isn't) useful in certain contexts.

another example: see pic. i like this, and sort of dislike it, for the reasons we're talking about. it's both in-focus and completely out of focus at the same time

@a_breakin_glass it does challenge multiple allistic assumptions about autism, though. which goes back to self/collective advocacy. which is good, but still.

@a_breakin_glass passing thought: a *lot* of the languaging around disability in general (autism included) is based in pathology, including when it's subverted to useful ends, relative to a given situation. what we don't have as much is terms that are our own. especially in Autistic/neurodiversity communities, from what I'm seeing so far.

compare this to queer/trans/enby/furry/etc/etc communities

@a_breakin_glass

ace/aro has an entire cosmology of terms, lol

which is good! they're ours, you know? (i'm demi)

@shoutcacophony perhaps because it's a community _formed_ by pathologization and oppression of people, and unlike say the queer community hasn't really taken on a life of its own because it's pretty much that an solely that? idk if these speculations are correct though, so :shrug:

@a_breakin_glass

that's the thing, especially viz. the Autistic community (especially as you get closer to actual self-advocacy -- ASAN, Autistic Women's and NB Network, as well as the outlands past there), it's far from *just* that.

@a_breakin_glass

in contrast, a lot of intersexed activism is almost entirely that, unfortunately. i did my best back when to advocate for a larger inclusive framework, but people couldn't even see it. "that's not intersexed". "but a queer phenotype is still a queer phenotype, and...nm, fk."

@a_breakin_glass

me, internally: we could be agitating with endocrine-disrupted farm workers, *but no*

them, vocally: softish terf things, advocating for their non-intersexed faves

later: one of said faves turns out to be a huge, very controversial terf. ooops

@a_breakin_glass later still: IS and autistic (if i recall) friend disappears for a while, then goes full fash, literally, most probably over getting zero support after years of yelling.

me: fuck, friend, why. i understand, but...why

them: 💔 i love you but also 😡 fuck those shitheads, enough already (paraphrase)

what can i even begin to say. especially since aquaintance more than friendo

@shoutcacophony that sounds awful really, but it does go to show that fascism can, sadly, appeal to marginalised people even though it generally looks down on them

@a_breakin_glass it was. long, slow implosion/explosion.

crossing that line is *still* crossing that line, but the road to getting there in some cases is a *lot* of abuse.

@shoutcacophony yeah, and in a society that perpetuates that abuse ...

@a_breakin_glass ..what tf else do "we" expect, honestly, at least some of the time

@shoutcacophony honestly? lots and lots of ruined and scarred lives and people. and sometimes, sadly, those scarred people get turned into fash :(

@a_breakin_glass (noting: i'm not in a bad place, sui-wise) i'm less amazed than i used to be that i've survived this long, but i still feel that way. mostly grateful, but also exhausted and perplexed. i've been through a lot of shit, just like a lot of us.

@a_breakin_glass i learned how to be survivor early on, but wow, some of the shit i've been through, and witnessed. :/

@shoutcacophony you have my full sympathy, shit can get horrible

@a_breakin_glass ty. likewise. <3

@shoutcacophony well I didn't know that mainly because I'm unfamiliar with the said community, so sorry for that :/

@a_breakin_glass zero blame, seriously :) i'm still learning as well, community-wise

@a_breakin_glass in any case, that's down into the details. don't mind me info dumping, lol

there's definitely things that come up. just like there are any time pathologizing/oppression is the centerpice as opposed to liberation and self-determination (as a community, not as a nation state, for the usual reasons )

@shoutcacophony when transness/gender dysphoria becomes a pathologized phenomenon, it results in gatekeeping and arguments over who is "truly" trans

@a_breakin_glass that's a social dynamic based on medical/"psychological" pathologizing though, not because of social model perspectives

social model = "everybody is doing what is their best reflection of themselves, it's society that's fucked up, sorry-not-sorry" in this case (and others), as i understand it

@shoutcacophony
> "social model of disability",

I mean, that's unsurprising. it inherently makes the same, or at least similar assumptions.

>it's why things like what was mentioned in that critique of "high functioning"

yeah, measuring people in their ability to conform to neurotypical expectations and calling that 'functioning' does tend to do that

@shoutcacophony Interesting. Particularly the part about "aware vs. unaware" of cues.

@qwyrdo there's no accounting for masking/camouflage in this assessment of that, you know? aargh.

Tania Marshall is a lot more on-point (she's an "autistic female" specialist), but also does that "self-dx can be a false diagnosis" thing.

in context, that makes sense (my guess is that she's saying that so people read her list of traits and jump to conclusions), but ffs y'all

@qwyrdo

meanwhile...

https://twitter.com/slooterman/status/994918698594000896

sighs

@qwyrdo

correction/typo:

"numbers of trans/queer and POC" = "numbers for trans/queer and POC" (the studies are very limited, and especially for trans folks, are being misrepesented in the mainstream media)

@auntiekiki @qwyrdo that's another issue, yup